>In February 2019, the company raised DKK 23 million (approximately US$3.5 million) in seed funding from Swedish venture capital firm Creandum.[4] Early versions required cloud registration to deploy code to devices.[5]
DNS blackhole the domain and run.
unsnap_biceps 6 hours ago [-]
> The commercial cloud offering was later discontinued. Development of fleet-management tooling continued through an open-source project called Artemis, built on Supabase and PostgreSQL, which users self-host.[8]
> According to Denmark's Central Business Register, Toitware ApS ceased operating in 2024.[9] Development of the language continues as a community project on GitHub.
Seems unlikely to be a bait and switch at this point
no_time 6 hours ago [-]
whoops, black and white thinking burns me once more.
Nice syntax. It looks like how we'd design programming if C had never existed.
add a/int b/int -> int:
return a + b
main:
print (add 2 3) // Prints 5.
pjmlp 25 minutes ago [-]
There are systems programming languages since JOVIAL in 1958, enough of them to chose from if C had never existed, and what syntaxes would be favoured instead.
thomascountz 7 hours ago [-]
Toit is a language for writing scripts on your computer and applications on your ESP32. A readable syntax, an efficient runtime, and tools that work together.
Free and open source. Maintained by volunteers.
skrebbel 7 hours ago [-]
Even after reading that (and more of the homepage) I have no idea what this is.
self 5 hours ago [-]
Think of it as a runtime + scheduler that you deploy programs to ESP32 devices. It gives you the ability to run multiple programs simultaneously (with isolation) and remote updates. The language compiles to bytecode; the developers have lots of experience writing VMs for constrained devices; see https://www.theregister.com/software/2004/07/27/forgotten-la... for something that predates V8 and Dart.
Rohansi 4 hours ago [-]
You get almost all of that with the more common language options too (MicroPython, NodeMCU/Lua, Espruino/JS). What makes this custom language better?
floitsch 4 hours ago [-]
We looked at these when we started. The problem with them is that they weren't designed with constrained resources in mind and it shows. For example, objects are hash tables and method calls are thus expensive. An obligatory top level execution makes startup slow, ...
If you have a bigger machine you can optimize some of this (V8), but these optimizations typically need memory and/or a JIT. (And Python struggles to optimize even on stronger machines).
By starting from scratch (with what we learned from V8 and Dart) you can design something that feels similar but is much cleaner and faster to run.
vanderZwan 4 hours ago [-]
Tangent: what an appropriate username :)
7 hours ago [-]
jacobgorm 7 hours ago [-]
The people behind Toit are the original people behind the V8 VM in Chrome. They know their stuff.
vanderZwan 7 hours ago [-]
Those were it's creators, are they still involved after the company folded?
Because if not, that might explain the lack of marketing around it.
floitsch 6 hours ago [-]
Kasper and I are still working on it.
vanderZwan 3 hours ago [-]
Very happy to hear that! I don't work in embedded but really like the language design of Toit. Hope it'll get a second chance, it feels like it flew under the radar a bit when it came out.
MrBuddyCasino 7 hours ago [-]
They should write this prominently on their website. It doesn’t radiate trustworthiness/substance/reputation. Also performance and resource requirements should be prominent when targets are MCUs.
Imustaskforhelp 7 hours ago [-]
Also co-founding Dart. They definitely know their stuff.
pjmlp 3 hours ago [-]
Dart v1.0, they had nothing to do with Dart v2.0, and the change in language semantics was the main reason folks like Gilad Bracha left the team.
jimbob45 6 hours ago [-]
Dart should have enjoyed the popularity that TypeScript received. Tough to compete with Hejlsberg though.
pjmlp 20 minutes ago [-]
TypeScript is however a plain JavaScript linter, you remove the type annotations and have JavaScript, which was a consequence of the learnings versus other JavaScript wannabe replacements.
Also why after namespaces and enums, the team never introduced any other feature that wasn't also part of JavaScript standardisation process, and has since then discouraged their use.
vanderZwan 3 hours ago [-]
Yeah, but Lars Bak isn't exactly a nobody when it comes to computer science either. Although I guess Bak is more famous for the implementation of programming languages than their design.
Aside: funny how Dart and TS both have Danish creators.
Google politics, Dart is only around thanks to AdWords team, and Flutter.
Jetpack Compose was created by Android team exactly as counter reaction to Flutter.
Go got lucky with their internal advocacy, and the push to rewrite Kubernetes from Java into Go.
Google isn't exactly known for great programming language design, contrary to runtime implementations.
latexr 5 hours ago [-]
I may be misremembering, but my recollection is that Dart was written off in large part because of Google. Distrust with them was already high as they were abusing their dominance with things like AMP, and people felt it was a bad idea to give them even more control over the web.
pjmlp 23 minutes ago [-]
It also required Dartium, its Chrome based VM, and Chrome team eventually did not want to ship it any longer.
dofm 2 hours ago [-]
Even I (as a sort of grudging cynic) now find myself thinking in these terms:
Is this a language that an LLM can write well?
Especially a small LLM, given the scripting and friendly IoT focus, where it might be useful for a smaller model in a home assistant to be able to write in it.
A packageable scripting language with fewer footguns that has LLM-friendly features feels like it probably has a place in the world.
But my own experience so far suggests that smaller LLMs in particular do better with simpler languages with obvious flow of control and less cleverness like metaprogramming.
floitsch 2 hours ago [-]
It's a good point.
LLMs have not been trained on Toit code as much as they have on Python or JS. No question about that. Without the Toit skills (https://github.com/toitlang/ai-instructions) LLMs used to be really bad. (They might be better now, but I never bothered to remove the skill files). From that point of view, Toit isn't a good choice.
On the other hand, Toit provides containers and a fast refresh-cycle. Both are godsends for AI agents: the containers make it so that the agent doesn't accidentally bring down the whole system when there is a bug, and the refresh cycle makes iterating on programs much faster. (Something I find agents to be really good at).
Fwiw, there isn't any clever metaprogramming in Toit.
dofm 1 hours ago [-]
Thank you for your reply — I think it sounds like you're in a good place here.
I still definitely wish this wasn't something we had to care about still, but for a while at least I suspect it is.
I am a small/open-weights LLM proponent, really, so at some point I will test this a bit more, because I tend to use LLMs close to bare-metal where prompts and skills are concerned, due to limited context. (In general I think post-training of smaller coding-oriented models like Muse Glimmer and Qwen has made long system prompts and extensive skill files far less significantly important)
Muse Glimmer seems to have some knowledge of Toit without searching the web.
e.g. I asked it: "Could you write an embedded webserver that blinks the LED the number of times specified in a GET query string parameter?"
And what it wrote without access to documentation appears to be plausible (from what its human overlord can see from the documentation at least).
heavensteeth 5 hours ago [-]
This seems very interesting. It almost looks/feels like Pythonic Go.
There's already another syntax example in the thread, but I want to point out the weirdest syntax I've seen yet: positional arguments look like posix command arguments:
greet name/string="World" --greeting/string="Hello" -> string:
return "$greeting $name"
main:
print (greet) // Prints Hello World.
print (greet "Ada" --greeting="Hi") // Prints Hi Ada.
skybrian 6 minutes ago [-]
It’s probably fine once you’re used to it, but I’m not sure that embedded development is the place to innovate on function call syntax.
Then again, nowadays, it’s not like you have to write code yourself.
kasperl 4 hours ago [-]
Arguments like --greeting are the named arguments:
Feedback for the doc writers on this then, the phrase in my head of "the name of the named argument is greeting, name is not named" is a little awkward.
kasperl 1 hours ago [-]
:)
AbuAssar 2 hours ago [-]
I wish any product new release announcement include a brief introduction about the product itself...
close2 3 hours ago [-]
I have used toit in a lot of my projects. It is a really nice language and so much cleaner than all the alternatives I have tried (Arduino, Python, Lua).
The tools just work and I got used to the language really quickly.
I did hate that it was bytecode. It just felt wrong to run bytecode on an ESP32. OTOH it just works, and I have never noticed any performance problems.
My latest project is a controller for a slave-clock: https://gitlab.com/close2/nebenuhr-toit
(There is also a Garmin repository that allows me to control the clock using my Garmin watch.)
Full disclosure: I had to use toit (floitsch is my brother), but it really is a nice language and development environment.
[Edit: typos..]
ivolimmen 22 minutes ago [-]
So (obvious question) how hard was it working using one hand as your brother was forcing your other one?
close2 12 minutes ago [-]
You get surprisingly good at typing with one hand after a while. ;)
kasperl 3 hours ago [-]
I just started working on a compile-to-native approach you might appreciate :)
benrutter 6 hours ago [-]
Looks interesting! I can't tell really from the docs the untended use case though. It says "scripts", but also " applications".
Most importantly though (/s), is this toit as in "roof" in French, toit as in "to it", or otherwise?
Ahaha! I'd been thinking it was pronounced as in French (a bit like "twah") when I should be saying it in Mike Myer's super authentic Dutch accent!
ivolimmen 25 minutes ago [-]
I can tell you that he does not have a Dutch accent. And the guy that played a Dutch guy was talking German. Source: I'm Dutch and also understand German.
mi_lk 3 hours ago [-]
now we're talking.
vim-guru 6 hours ago [-]
Looks quite nice
mi_lk 7 hours ago [-]
Who is using this? The company originally behind it has shut down
qweqwe14 4 hours ago [-]
No one, it's just a toy language
floitsch 3 hours ago [-]
I think "toy language" isn't really fair. Toit has been developed for 7 years, some of which with multiple engineers working on it full time. (The blog post says 4 years, but that's just for the v2.0.0 development).
Toit doesn't have a lot of users, but it is used in production (for example by Consibio) and is definitely developed for production environments.
mcphage 2 hours ago [-]
Oh, good—I've been looking for a Round one for years.
Hamuko 6 hours ago [-]
Is there some kind of an advertising blurb for why you’d want to use Toit, especially for scripting? I think the only thing I saw was “a readable language”, but I’d probably consider Python more readable than it judging from the examples.
floitsch 2 hours ago [-]
A few more bullet points to encourage readers to have a look at Toit:
- Faster than Python. Depending on the benchmark up to x10.
- Can be compiled to executables. Currently `-o` just takes an interpreter and attaches the bytecodes, but Kasper also started experimenting with native output.
- Cleaner base. Objects aren't just hashtables. This can be seen as a downside as well (making the language less flexible), but in my book it's a win.
- The `--named=value` syntax is just a winner :)
mkl 2 hours ago [-]
> The `--named=value` syntax is just a winner
The "--" seems so unnecessary though. Wouldn't "name=" be sufficient to signal a named parameter? Or maybe Toit has expressions that use "=".
floitsch 2 hours ago [-]
We probably could have made it work without the `--`. Coming from Posix, the `--` feels natural, and it also allows for code completion.
ricardobeat 5 hours ago [-]
Good luck running (micro)python on an ESP32.
qweqwe14 4 hours ago [-]
Lua exists :)
_s_a_m_ 4 hours ago [-]
The last thing this planet needs a new programming language
DNS blackhole the domain and run.
> According to Denmark's Central Business Register, Toitware ApS ceased operating in 2024.[9] Development of the language continues as a community project on GitHub.
Seems unlikely to be a bait and switch at this point
Nice syntax. It looks like how we'd design programming if C had never existed.
If you have a bigger machine you can optimize some of this (V8), but these optimizations typically need memory and/or a JIT. (And Python struggles to optimize even on stronger machines).
By starting from scratch (with what we learned from V8 and Dart) you can design something that feels similar but is much cleaner and faster to run.
Because if not, that might explain the lack of marketing around it.
Also why after namespaces and enums, the team never introduced any other feature that wasn't also part of JavaScript standardisation process, and has since then discouraged their use.
Aside: funny how Dart and TS both have Danish creators.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Hejlsberg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Bak_(computer_programmer)
Jetpack Compose was created by Android team exactly as counter reaction to Flutter.
Go got lucky with their internal advocacy, and the push to rewrite Kubernetes from Java into Go.
Google isn't exactly known for great programming language design, contrary to runtime implementations.
Is this a language that an LLM can write well?
Especially a small LLM, given the scripting and friendly IoT focus, where it might be useful for a smaller model in a home assistant to be able to write in it.
A packageable scripting language with fewer footguns that has LLM-friendly features feels like it probably has a place in the world.
But my own experience so far suggests that smaller LLMs in particular do better with simpler languages with obvious flow of control and less cleverness like metaprogramming.
LLMs have not been trained on Toit code as much as they have on Python or JS. No question about that. Without the Toit skills (https://github.com/toitlang/ai-instructions) LLMs used to be really bad. (They might be better now, but I never bothered to remove the skill files). From that point of view, Toit isn't a good choice.
On the other hand, Toit provides containers and a fast refresh-cycle. Both are godsends for AI agents: the containers make it so that the agent doesn't accidentally bring down the whole system when there is a bug, and the refresh cycle makes iterating on programs much faster. (Something I find agents to be really good at).
Fwiw, there isn't any clever metaprogramming in Toit.
I still definitely wish this wasn't something we had to care about still, but for a while at least I suspect it is.
I am a small/open-weights LLM proponent, really, so at some point I will test this a bit more, because I tend to use LLMs close to bare-metal where prompts and skills are concerned, due to limited context. (In general I think post-training of smaller coding-oriented models like Muse Glimmer and Qwen has made long system prompts and extensive skill files far less significantly important)
Muse Glimmer seems to have some knowledge of Toit without searching the web.
e.g. I asked it: "Could you write an embedded webserver that blinks the LED the number of times specified in a GET query string parameter?"
And what it wrote without access to documentation appears to be plausible (from what its human overlord can see from the documentation at least).
There's already another syntax example in the thread, but I want to point out the weirdest syntax I've seen yet: positional arguments look like posix command arguments:
Then again, nowadays, it’s not like you have to write code yourself.
https://docs.toit.io/language/beginner/lists-and-functions/#...
The name argument is positional here.
The tools just work and I got used to the language really quickly.
I did hate that it was bytecode. It just felt wrong to run bytecode on an ESP32. OTOH it just works, and I have never noticed any performance problems.
My latest project is a controller for a slave-clock: https://gitlab.com/close2/nebenuhr-toit (There is also a Garmin repository that allows me to control the clock using my Garmin watch.)
Full disclosure: I had to use toit (floitsch is my brother), but it really is a nice language and development environment.
[Edit: typos..]
Most importantly though (/s), is this toit as in "roof" in French, toit as in "to it", or otherwise?
"toit like a tiger"
https://youtu.be/gu31VyXlTzo
Toit doesn't have a lot of users, but it is used in production (for example by Consibio) and is definitely developed for production environments.
- Faster than Python. Depending on the benchmark up to x10.
- Can be compiled to executables. Currently `-o` just takes an interpreter and attaches the bytecodes, but Kasper also started experimenting with native output.
- Cleaner base. Objects aren't just hashtables. This can be seen as a downside as well (making the language less flexible), but in my book it's a win.
- The `--named=value` syntax is just a winner :)
The "--" seems so unnecessary though. Wouldn't "name=" be sufficient to signal a named parameter? Or maybe Toit has expressions that use "=".